Earlier this year Texas lawmakers passed a law allowing licensed gun owners to bring concealed weapons into university buildings and classrooms. The so-called 鈥渃ampus carry鈥� law takes effect August 1, 2016, for public universities and in 2017 for community colleges.
Daniel Hamermesh started teaching at the University of Texas at Austin in 1993 and retired last year, but he was scheduled to teach another introductory economics class as professor emeritus. Instead, he鈥檚 quitting early because of the new gun law.
Michael Newbern, on the other hand, wishes his state would follow Texas鈥� lead. Newbern teaches engineering economics at the Ohio State University at Marion, and he鈥檚 the Ohio director for the group Students for Concealed Carry.
Here & Now鈥�s Jeremy Hobson talks with Hamermesh and Newbern for a look at both sides of the debate over guns on campus.
Interview Highlights: Daniel Hamermesh
Is your resignation a form of protest or are you afraid for your own safety?
鈥淣o, I don鈥檛 view it as a form of protest. It鈥檚 rather that with this new law going into effect next year, it just slightly increases the risk that some student either in class gets upset and pulls a gun that he has ready access to, or more likely in my office. A student comes in, is upset about a grade 鈥� which happens all the time 鈥� and they pull a gun suddenly. It鈥檚 just not worth the extra risk. That鈥檚 the main issue.鈥�
Why do you think you are more at risk because of this law in particular?
鈥淢ainly because people can now carry guns into my office or into my classroom. Before, there was a gun-carry on campus, but not in the offices and classrooms. You know, if I had 20 students in the class I don鈥檛 think it would make much difference. The odds of any one student sort of flipping out and playing gun are very low, but I teach 500 at a pop. And in that big of a group, there鈥檚 a good chance of one of them complaining enough, being angry enough and having a gun to possibly cause me harm and I don鈥檛 want to put up with it.鈥�
On comments saying that laws only stop law-abiding gun owners
鈥淥f course that鈥檚 true, but that鈥檚 not the real issue here. The issue is your fear of people do have guns and didn鈥檛 have them before. And we鈥檙e dealing with kids who are under the age of 25 where the guys鈥� brains aren鈥檛 fully wired yet. They can have a psychotic break or some kind of break, and in their anger, now that they have a gun in their back pocket, pull it out and shoot at me.鈥�
What do you say to students who feel safer with more guns on campus?
鈥淒o they really want to turn the classroom into a shooting gallery? One of my buddies referred to the eventual gun fight at the econ corral, a term that I rather liked. I don鈥檛 think they鈥檙e safer and the evidence in other Anglo-Saxon countries where guns are much more difficult to come by and where there isn鈥檛 this kind of violence suggests to me that if we arm ourselves more and more, there鈥檒l just be more violence, there鈥檒l be random shootings. Bystanders who don鈥檛 want to be involved will, if such a random shooting takes place, find themselves injured or killed.鈥�
Interview Highlights: Michael Newbern
On college campus gun laws in Ohio
鈥淭he legislature wrote the law basically to allow someone to come to the hospital or someone to come to university, store their firearm in a motor vehicle, but not carry it onto campus. That鈥檚 to afford the person the opportunity to defend themselves in their commute. And we鈥檇 like to see the law changed so that a person with a valid concealed handgun license may carry a concealed handgun onto a college campus in the state of Ohio.鈥�
Why?
鈥淲ell, because it鈥檚 a self-defense issue. We鈥檙e already authorized as concealed handgun licensees to carry in many other non-secure locations in the state of Ohio 鈥� state parks, restaurants that serve alcohol as long as they鈥檙e not consuming. And we鈥檙e just not having problems, there鈥檚 really no reason to deny it anymore, you know, instead of allowing the criminal the upper hand and that鈥檚 what you do when you deny.鈥�
Are you having problems by not being allowed to carry weapons on campus?
鈥淥h, absolutely, absolutely. So there are plenty of students, faculty and staff, and myself included 鈥� I live a half an hour away from the university that I teach at. And so when I commute back and forth to campus, I鈥檓 disarmed from the time I leave my home until the time I get home. Now, if I have to stop somewhere, fix a flat tire or something like that, I鈥檓 vulnerable when I stop my motor vehicle. If we have the university follow a law and that says that I can carry my firearm in my motor vehicle while I鈥檓 in transit then that fixes the one piece. The second piece is that I should be able to carry my concealed handgun on the college campus to defend myself actively while I鈥檓 on campus.鈥�
How will campuses be more safe with more guns on campus?
鈥淲ell, because it makes the victim selection process more difficult. So if you鈥檙e a criminal, you鈥檒l look for certain criteria. And so if you鈥檙e in an area where you are relatively guaranteed that every person in there is law-abiding and every person in there does not possess a tool of force equal to what you possess, then your risk, you know, that you engage in by carrying out that crime is much lower.鈥�
On shootings at places where people are armed, like Ft. Hood or the Washington Navy Yard
鈥淏oth of those places, private concealed carry was prohibited. The only people that had firearms in both those places were guards and you knew where they were stationed. So when you allow people to carry concealed handguns privately, you don鈥檛 know who has a firearm. It鈥檚 not like shooting fish in a barrel. Then it becomes jumping into a tank of barracudas and picking out the fish you can eat.鈥�
Guests
- , former professor of economics at the University of Texas at Austin.
- Michael Newbern, part-time faculty in the engineering department at The Ohio State University and the Ohio director for the group . He tweets .
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