STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
We hear next from Annie Farmer, one of many people who testified against Jeffrey Epstein and his partner Ghislaine Maxwell. She told her story about being abused at Epstein's New Mexico ranch when she was 16. She used her full name at a bail hearing for Epstein and again at Maxwell's criminal trial. She is now here in Washington for this week's House vote, and she is here in Studio 31. Good morning. Thanks for coming by.
ANNIE FARMER: Good morning.
INSKEEP: What is this moment like for you, to be ready for this vote after all this time?
FARMER: It's a bit surreal, honestly, to be here now with so much attention and so much momentum. But it's also, you know, hearing the news, the way it's unfolding and feeling like there's more and more pressure to finally have the transparency we've been asking for feels really good.
INSKEEP: Just a few days ago, it appeared that the White House was pressuring Republican lawmakers to turn against this vote, to take their names off a petition, if they could. And suddenly last night, the president says go ahead and vote, vote for it. What do you think of that about-face?
FARMER: I think there's a healthy amount of skepticism amongst those of us who have been involved in this fight for a long time. You know, there have been so many efforts to, I'd say, politicize this and obfuscate the truth that, you know, I hope that that is the case and that everyone's on the same page that this would be the best thing for the American people. But, you know, I think that remains to be seen.
INSKEEP: It's a little strange here. The resolution that the president is now in favor of, I guess, would not have the force of law. It would have to still pass the Senate. It would have to be signed by the president. But the documents, so far as we know, are in the Justice Department that the president very strictly controls. What do you want the president to do?
FARMER: You know, I think we're all very clear. We want all of the files released. I am concerned that, you know, creating a new active investigation would potentially, you know, give them the excuse of holding back certain files. And I think that would be very problematic because, again, we have seen this kind of, you know, trickling of information coming out. And I think that's really hard on us. It means that this continues on and on. We want all of the files released.
INSKEEP: You just said an interesting thing referring to another statement of the president. At the end of last week, he said, wait a minute, I want to investigate the Democrats, instructed the Justice Department to investigate not him - because his name has turned up hundreds of times in files - but Democrats who've been named. Bill Clinton, Larry Summers, the former Treasury Secretary, on and on - a major Democratic donor, some other people. It sounds like you're skeptical of that demand for an investigation, which the Justice Department is obeying.
FARMER: Yes. Yes. I think, you know, what we have continued to say is this is not partisan. You know, when my sister, Maria Farmer, first reported, she was really the initial whistleblower on this case in 1996. She talked to the FBI, right? That was during the Clinton administration. We have had problems occur in this case during almost every administration. There have been, you know, failures over and over again. And that's why we have really - my sister actually filed a lawsuit against the federal government because of their failures, their negligence, you know, to do the right thing in this case. And so, you know, that's why she did that. That's why we've all come together to say very clearly, bring this out of the shadows. We need full transparency. We don't want excuses about holding certain things back.
INSKEEP: When the Justice Department initially said several months ago, we're not releasing any more information, nothing more to see here - whatever we may have, there's no public use in releasing it - is it possible that they were correct that there isn't any more information than what's already in the public domain?
FARMER: No. That's really not (laughter) possible.
INSKEEP: Go on. Why do you think that?
FARMER: I mean, I think even what we've seen - right? - coming out recently with the work of the House Oversight Committee, right? I think there's certain things there that have come to light that the American public has a lot of interest in knowing and understanding. And it's also, you know, there's the piece about accountability, wanting people that not just participated in these crimes but also that allowed them, that funded them, you know, that looked the other way. I think there's a reckoning for all of that that needs to happen. And so this idea that, no, there's nothing more to see here, we don't buy it.
INSKEEP: I guess there have been details that I didn't know in recent days. The idea that Epstein was collaborating with a member of Congress, asking questions about this at one point. The closeness of Larry Summers with Epstein and his wife, going back and forth with very intimate discussions. More than 1,000 mentions of the president of the United States in these files, among other things.
FARMER: Yeah.
INSKEEP: I want to go into one other matter here, if I can, that I feel is important to raise, if possible. Megyn Kelly, prominent - you're nodding.
FARMER: Yes.
INSKEEP: You know what I'm going to ask about. I'm going to lay it out here for people who are not familiar. Megyn Kelly, a very prominent podcast host, former Fox News host, has been talking about this, and in recent days, tried to draw a distinction between abusing a teenager, someone 16, 17, and abusing an 8-year-old. You have testified that you were abused at the age of 16 at Epstein's New Mexico ranch. Do you see a distinction between an 8-year-old and a 16-year-old?
FARMER: No. I think that it's incredibly problematic, the way that she is trying to minimize crimes against people that are under the law considered children, right? She actually used the term barely legal to describe a 15-year-old, which is completely inaccurate.
INSKEEP: Actually illegal, yes.
FARMER: Yeah, that is illegal. And I think it's just part of a campaign, because they have not been able to get rid of this, maybe trying to say, well, really this wasn't so bad. And I think that's horrifying. It sends a very dangerous message to young people in this country that, you know, if something happened to them, they would not be - it wouldn't be considered a crime. That is wrong.
INSKEEP: One other thing I want to ask about before I let you go. Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland has given evidence, says that a whistleblower has come forward and given evidence to the House Judiciary Committee of special treatment for Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, including customized meals, playtime with a service dog, access to prison exercise areas, other things. You testified against Maxwell. What do you think of the way she's being treated in prison?
FARMER: It's disturbing. Yeah, I'm in contact with another woman that testified in that trial as well. And, you know, when we hear these things come out, I think we're horrified, you know? And it makes me think about people, too, who are not here, people like Virginia Giuffre, you know, whose recent memoir has gotten so much attention. And she so clearly describes how Maxwell was very pivotal in the abuse that occurred. And there's another woman who testified in that trial who lost her life since that trial, and I think because of the complications of trauma that she endured. And so it's really, really upsetting to think that she would somehow be escaping her punishment that she very much deserves.
INSKEEP: Annie Farmer is here in Studio 31. She's here in Washington as the House of Representatives prepares to vote on a resolution urging the release of the Epstein files. Thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it.
FARMER: Thank you for having me.
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